0:00:00.400,0:00:03.520
What if you had to live and work in the same
room as all of your waste?

0:00:03.520,0:00:05.600
Including what comes out of your body.

0:00:05.600,0:00:06.600
[ Eagle screeches ]

0:00:08.120,0:00:12.320
EGS Program Chief Engineer, verify no constraints
to launch.

0:00:12.380,0:00:15.180
EGS Chief Engineer team has no constraints.

0:00:15.180,0:00:16.020
I copy that.

0:00:16.020,0:00:17.620
You are clear to launch.

0:00:17.760,0:00:25.020
Five, four, three, two, one, and lift-off.

0:00:25.120,0:00:25.960
All clear.

0:00:27.400,0:00:30.400
Now passing through max q, maximum dynamic
pressure.

0:00:30.400,0:00:31.960
Welcome to space.

0:00:33.520,0:00:37.800
As we plan to send humans farther into our
solar system than ever before, there are a

0:00:37.809,0:00:41.680
lot of challenges, and at the top of the heap…
is trash.

0:00:41.680,0:00:49.020
On a one year mission a crew of four will
produce about 2,500 kilograms of trash.

0:00:49.020,0:00:52.359
But we don’t have interstellar landfills.

0:00:52.359,0:00:57.500
What we do have are super smart scientists
and engineers working on converting trash…

0:00:57.500,0:00:58.500
into gas.

0:01:00.900,0:01:07.940
So, I am in the booth now with Dr. Annie Meier
and Jake Hochstadt.

0:01:07.950,0:01:12.580
Annie is kind of reeling right now because
she's actually very new to the title of doctor,

0:01:12.580,0:01:14.980
and I love to embarrass her by talking about
it.

0:01:14.980,0:01:16.770
Annie and Jake, welcome.

0:01:16.770,0:01:17.770
Hello, hello.

0:01:17.770,0:01:18.770
Thanks.

0:01:18.770,0:01:23.450
And as with any great program, the OSCAR project
is an acronym.

0:01:23.450,0:01:27.850
What does OSCAR stand for and what's the overarching
goal here?

0:01:27.850,0:01:34.000
OSCAR stands for Orbital Syngas/Commodity
Augmentation Reactor.

0:01:34.000,0:01:38.700
So, syngas is actually a shorter term for
synthetic gas.

0:01:38.700,0:01:43.730
Synthetic gas is usually a mixture of things
like carbon monoxide, carbon dioxide, and

0:01:43.730,0:01:50.970
methane, which are very simple -- we call
them permanent gases that are very small molecules

0:01:50.970,0:01:55.880
that can be used as building blocks for other
things, whether it be for life support or

0:01:55.880,0:01:57.530
for fuel production.

0:01:57.530,0:02:03.920
So we're creating this syngas and then converting
commodities, so that's how we got to OSCAR.

0:02:03.920,0:02:07.670
Annie, what got you really interested in trash
and recycling?

0:02:07.670,0:02:10.690
Did you have a really messy college roommate?

0:02:10.690,0:02:13.620
[ Chuckles ] Yes but no.

0:02:13.620,0:02:14.620
[ Laughter ]

0:02:14.620,0:02:16.210
Didn't we all have a messy roommate?

0:02:16.210,0:02:18.600
No, my roommates were pretty clean, actually.

0:02:18.600,0:02:20.250
They were tidy.

0:02:20.250,0:02:23.190
I'd say -- So, it's kind of funny.

0:02:23.190,0:02:31.300
I grew up in New York, and it always fascinated
me how many people lived there, and how much

0:02:31.300,0:02:33.790
waste could be processed.

0:02:33.790,0:02:41.260
We used to actually have -- The Atlantic Ocean
is on the south shore of Long Island and Queens

0:02:41.260,0:02:48.930
and the lower part of Staten Island, and when
there was a big storm or, say, a Super Bowl

0:02:48.930,0:02:53.350
-- everybody, you know, flushed the toilet
at the same time or a big storm, the storm

0:02:53.350,0:02:58.510
walls would overflow and all the trash and
waste water would go into the ocean and you

0:02:58.510,0:03:03.870
wouldn't be allowed to go on the ocean, you
know, until it was cleared because things

0:03:03.870,0:03:07.150
like needles would be washing up or hazardous
stuff.

0:03:07.150,0:03:12.240
So for me I became fascinated with, "Wow,
how do we manage all this trash?”

0:03:12.240,0:03:16.990
Whether it's people's garbage in their house
or, you know, when you flush the toilet, where

0:03:16.990,0:03:18.490
does it all go?

0:03:18.490,0:03:25.920
And, funny enough, my grandfather was a garbage
man in the Bronx, so growing up, we heard

0:03:25.920,0:03:32.160
a lot of stories of him being a garbage man
in New York City, and so the history and the

0:03:32.160,0:03:37.690
trash of New York actually just fascinated
me, and it was crazy because I read this book

0:03:37.690,0:03:42.650
where I learned we were just taking our trash,
putting it on barges, and just dumping it

0:03:42.650,0:03:47.790
into the ocean before things like the EPA
were started in the '70s.

0:03:47.790,0:03:53.410
And so I thought, "Wow, we're killing our
Earth and our planet if we don't manage our

0:03:53.410,0:03:54.910
waste properly.”

0:03:54.910,0:03:56.180
And guess what.

0:03:56.180,0:04:03.341
That was a long time ago, and we still haven't
figured it out as a planet, so for me, when

0:04:03.341,0:04:08.150
I started working at the Space Center, and
I heard -- I was kind of brought in on this

0:04:08.150,0:04:12.591
waste-conversion project, I was like, "Wow,
this is fate.

0:04:12.591,0:04:13.591
This is just awesome.”

0:04:13.591,0:04:19.230
So I feel like it really meshes well with
my synergy of wanting to save the planet and

0:04:19.230,0:04:24.740
figure out the waste problem but also having
sustainable space travel, so that's kind of

0:04:24.740,0:04:26.750
some of the history there.

0:04:26.750,0:04:27.750
Cool.

0:04:27.750,0:04:30.490
And so, obviously waste conversion, you mentioned
that, Doctor.

0:04:30.490,0:04:33.139
So I want to kind of key on that a little
bit.

0:04:33.139,0:04:37.520
So, why is NASA so invested in trash conversion?

0:04:37.520,0:04:44.410
Okay, so, no matter where we send humans,
they're always going to have trash, just like

0:04:44.410,0:04:50.100
when you go camping here on Earth or you're
sitting in your living room, you're probably

0:04:50.100,0:04:52.250
producing trash.

0:04:52.250,0:04:57.790
And on a space mission, the day-to-day trash,
we call that logistical trash, which is like

0:04:57.790,0:05:03.560
food packaging, their clothing after they've
worn in it, as much as they can.

0:05:03.560,0:05:06.120
It all becomes trash.

0:05:06.120,0:05:11.030
And aside from that, you also have human waste,
such as fecal and urine, so no matter where

0:05:11.030,0:05:14.060
we send those humans, they're gonna be producing
waste.

0:05:14.060,0:05:16.190
That's gonna take up space.

0:05:16.190,0:05:18.640
It's going to have to be stored somewhere.

0:05:18.640,0:05:19.640
It's going to smell.

0:05:19.640,0:05:26.800
And it costs so much money, so why we really
like our project is because it provides a

0:05:26.800,0:05:30.690
sustainable avenue towards deep space exploration.

0:05:30.690,0:05:37.490
If those astronauts are creating this large
pile of trash, why not do something useful

0:05:37.490,0:05:42.330
with it like get back the useful stuff that's
inside of it, like the raw materials?

0:05:42.330,0:05:46.080
When you say raw materials, what do you mean?

0:05:46.080,0:05:52.130
Are you talking about, like, terrestrial recycling
of plastic kind of a situation?

0:05:52.130,0:05:53.130
Sort of.

0:05:53.130,0:05:57.330
So, what we're doing -- There's a lot of different
ways you can process waste.

0:05:57.330,0:06:02.690
You could either melt it back down and use
it as 3-D printing feed stock if it's plastic,

0:06:02.690,0:06:08.710
but in our case, we're looking at taking the
solid and making it a gas, and we don't get

0:06:08.710,0:06:10.590
everything into gas form.

0:06:10.590,0:06:19.550
About 10% gets left behind, and that's either
left over as liquids or metals that can be

0:06:19.550,0:06:20.550
repurposed.

0:06:20.550,0:06:25.360
So, like a metal, that would be a raw material
that we've recovered and you can use for either

0:06:25.360,0:06:29.070
3-D printing or shielding or something like
that.

0:06:29.070,0:06:35.200
And then the rest would be a gas, and the
gas, you can either use it as a fuel or you

0:06:35.200,0:06:40.060
can dispense it safely off the spacecraft,
and now you've created a whole bunch of room

0:06:40.060,0:06:46.520
for the astronauts to do other stuff, like
cool science or live happily in their confined

0:06:46.520,0:06:47.550
environment.

0:06:47.550,0:06:51.560
How are we currently dealing with the trash
that we're creating in space?

0:06:51.560,0:06:59.130
So, right now, on Space Station, the crew
takes their trash and they put it into bags,

0:06:59.130,0:07:03.590
depending on if it's liquid waste or dry waste.

0:07:03.590,0:07:05.600
We would call it wet waste or dry waste.

0:07:05.600,0:07:08.169
And they go into two different types of bags.

0:07:08.169,0:07:15.090
And then those bags actually get stored in
additional bags, called cargo transfer bags,

0:07:15.090,0:07:21.870
and once a visiting vehicle arrives, which
is a vehicle that is launched from the Earth

0:07:21.870,0:07:26.810
and attaches to Space Station, the astronauts
then transfer all those cargo transfer bags

0:07:26.810,0:07:33.729
into that visiting vehicle, and then that
visiting vehicle separates from the station

0:07:33.729,0:07:38.750
and goes back down into Earth and burns up
in the atmosphere.

0:07:38.750,0:07:46.639
So all of that waste that's been accumulated
for however long they've had it up there,

0:07:46.639,0:07:49.010
basically just burns up.

0:07:49.010,0:07:50.490
That might work okay.

0:07:50.490,0:07:53.500
Obviously it's not ideal if you're burning
up trash and just wasting it, but it might

0:07:53.500,0:07:57.460
work okay on the International Space Station,
but when you're on a six-month mission or

0:07:57.460,0:08:03.020
a nine-month mission to Mars, you can't just
be ejecting trash somewhere in the middle

0:08:03.020,0:08:07.400
of space, so you have to deal with that trash,
so you either have to keep it on your transporting

0:08:07.400,0:08:15.880
vehicle, take up a bunch of space, or use
our trash-to-gas concept.

0:08:15.880,0:08:22.190
How do you quantify how much trash a human
makes?

0:08:22.190,0:08:29.990
Okay, so, on a one-year mission, a crew of
four will produce about 2,500 kilograms of

0:08:29.990,0:08:31.100
trash.

0:08:31.100,0:08:34.039
2,500 kilograms is about 5,500 pounds.

0:08:34.039,0:08:42.729
Yeah, so if you converted all of the waste
from a one-year mission into, say, methane,

0:08:42.729,0:08:51.319
all of that gas was getting used as fuel,
the current public documentation for taking

0:08:51.319,0:08:55.509
something off of the surface of the Moon and
bringing it back to an orbiting spacecraft,

0:08:55.509,0:09:00.529
it's enough methane to provide fuel for that
engine of that ascent vehicle, which is pretty

0:09:00.529,0:09:02.040
significant if you think about it.

0:09:02.040,0:09:08.889
I mean, you're saving fuel that has to be
launched from Earth, kept cool.

0:09:08.889,0:09:14.369
You can actually produce it from the astronauts'
trash, so it's pretty significant they, if

0:09:14.369,0:09:16.740
it is chosen to be used as a fuel.

0:09:16.740,0:09:20.999
So, when you talk about methane gas and being
produced, so we're talking about breaking

0:09:20.999,0:09:24.019
down trash on a very molecular level.

0:09:24.019,0:09:25.019
Is that correct?

0:09:25.019,0:09:26.019
Yeah.

0:09:26.019,0:09:32.869
So, the main trash is plastics, which are
basically oil products, and so they're these

0:09:32.869,0:09:38.869
long-chain hydrocarbons, and if you think
of hydrocarbons as these long chains of carbon

0:09:38.869,0:09:44.300
molecules and the stuff that we're exposing
them to in our reactor are, like, chopping

0:09:44.300,0:09:50.319
up those molecules, all those little molecules
break down, and some of the smallest molecules,

0:09:50.319,0:09:55.899
once you add, say, hydrogen for example, you
can get methane out of it, so that's how we

0:09:55.899,0:10:02.649
chemically manipulate it in the presence of
heat and different chemical compositions and

0:10:02.649,0:10:03.649
pressures.

0:10:03.649,0:10:04.649
Cool.

0:10:04.649,0:10:09.649
So, Annie, tell me about your role on the
project this year.

0:10:09.649,0:10:12.220
What are you doing for OSCAR?

0:10:12.220,0:10:13.220
She's leading us.

0:10:13.220,0:10:14.719
That's what she's doing.

0:10:14.719,0:10:15.719
[ Laughter ]

0:10:15.719,0:10:23.639
So, yeah, I guess my title is Team Lead, and
I coordinate all of the awesome team members

0:10:23.639,0:10:24.819
that we have.

0:10:24.819,0:10:30.110
They're multi-disciplinary, so we have everyone
from Jake, who's electrical software, we have

0:10:30.110,0:10:34.050
people from Safety, we have people from Communications.

0:10:34.050,0:10:40.959
For us, a young or early career team that
is moving so fast and is trying to fight bureaucracy

0:10:40.959,0:10:48.360
and kind of going outside of the norms of
the NASA culture or even traditional workplace

0:10:48.360,0:10:54.759
culture, I'd say is very unusual around, around
this neck of the woods.

0:10:54.759,0:10:58.410
OSCAR is funded by the Early Career Initiative
or ECI.

0:10:58.410,0:11:03.139
ECI is a research and technology initiative
run out of NASA Headquarters and is designed

0:11:03.139,0:11:09.279
to do three things… develop the next generation
of NASA technologists, develop exciting and

0:11:09.279,0:11:13.899
innovative technologies to achieve NASA’s
goals, and encourage the use of innovative

0:11:13.899,0:11:17.019
and agile methods and processes.

0:11:17.019,0:11:21.149
That's really, really a big part of why OSCAR
exists today.

0:11:21.149,0:11:22.149
Yep.

0:11:22.149,0:11:25.369
So can you tell us a little bit, kind of big
picture, what is the early career initiative?

0:11:25.369,0:11:29.940
So, the early career initiative -- I'm trying
to think the easiest way to put this, is -- it's

0:11:29.940,0:11:36.759
mostly the core team of ECI project or Early
Career Initiative is members are within 10

0:11:36.759,0:11:37.759
years out of college.

0:11:37.759,0:11:42.259
So the idea is NASA is trying to figure out
new ways to approach problems, and they're

0:11:42.259,0:11:45.490
trying to get the younger folks to look at
a problem a little bit differently than the

0:11:45.490,0:11:46.589
more traditional way.

0:11:46.589,0:11:47.589
It changed.

0:11:47.589,0:11:48.589
It's eight years.

0:11:48.589,0:11:49.589
Oh, it's eight years?

0:11:49.589,0:11:51.759
Of working for the government.

0:11:51.759,0:11:52.759
Oh.

0:11:52.759,0:11:56.410
So it takes all ages, just eight years of
work experience.

0:11:56.410,0:11:57.939
I didn't know that.

0:11:57.939,0:12:01.079
So is this a project opportunity that's open
to everybody?

0:12:01.079,0:12:07.060
Yeah, they're highly competed across all the
centers, and so, for the first round, when

0:12:07.060,0:12:13.730
Jake was on it, they did two projects, and
then, for this round, they did two projects,

0:12:13.730,0:12:17.879
so those are competed amongst the centers,
and then you have to survive the center down

0:12:17.879,0:12:25.329
selection, and then survive the headquarters
down selection, so it is not a common thing

0:12:25.329,0:12:28.369
to see at NASA.

0:12:28.369,0:12:30.230
But it's exciting.

0:12:30.230,0:12:31.230
Yes.

0:12:31.230,0:12:35.860
So, if I can also add what makes working for
Anne so great, not to toot my boss's horn,

0:12:35.860,0:12:37.549
but she's very technical.

0:12:37.549,0:12:39.209
She's Dr. Meier, right?

0:12:39.209,0:12:40.490
So, she's not only leading us.

0:12:40.490,0:12:42.299
She knows what she's talking about.

0:12:42.299,0:12:43.299
Or do I?

0:12:43.299,0:12:44.299
[ Laughter ]

0:12:44.299,0:12:45.409
Just kidding.

0:12:45.409,0:12:46.409
[ Laughter ]

0:12:46.409,0:12:50.619
So it's great to have a leader that's actually
in the weeds with us on the day-to-day process,

0:12:50.619,0:12:53.449
helping us through developing this project.

0:12:53.449,0:13:00.470
So, Jake, what's your function on the team?

0:13:00.470,0:13:02.149
So, I guess –

0:13:02.149,0:13:03.829
Tooter of Horn.

0:13:03.829,0:13:04.829
[ Laughter ]

0:13:04.829,0:13:07.579
So, I wear multiple hats, I think.

0:13:07.579,0:13:13.309
I have the electrical background, so I guess
I've been doing more making sure our lab view

0:13:13.309,0:13:17.239
and our hardware components talk with the
software.

0:13:17.239,0:13:19.790
And were you all starting from scratch on
this project?

0:13:19.790,0:13:21.959
Is this kind of the ground floor?

0:13:21.959,0:13:28.430
I'd say we had a lot of heritage knowledge
from the prior trash-to-gas project, but when

0:13:28.430,0:13:35.290
it came to designing a waste reactor that
could work in a micro-gravity environment,

0:13:35.290,0:13:39.209
we were starting from the ground up.

0:13:39.209,0:13:49.569
We went from concepts on whiteboards to designs
on napkins, all the way to proper engineering

0:13:49.569,0:13:54.730
schematics and paperwork that you would expect
to see in a designer view, all the way up

0:13:54.730,0:14:00.299
to building, prototyping, and then testing,
and now we're analyzing data, so it's been

0:14:00.299,0:14:07.369
kind of a full circle, which is also unusual
for something to happen that fast on a project.

0:14:07.369,0:14:08.670
We started in January.

0:14:08.670,0:14:13.939
It's already December, and we've gone from
design, development, build –

0:14:13.939,0:14:16.079
PVS approval.

0:14:16.079,0:14:22.920
Pressure vessel systems, and it's a high-temperature,
high-oxygen system, which is considered hazardous,

0:14:22.920,0:14:27.589
so we've had to be very careful in how we
rapidly design.

0:14:27.589,0:14:34.749
So, Annie, I know in the trash-to-gas project
of the past, you all used some simulants to

0:14:34.749,0:14:37.800
kind of mimic human waste.

0:14:37.800,0:14:38.800
Is that correct?

0:14:38.800,0:14:42.730
Yeah, we have a recipe for poop and a recipe
for urine.

0:14:42.730,0:14:45.800
And are you using those for OSCAR at this
point, or is that, like, for the future sometime?

0:14:45.800,0:14:51.480
We will be, probably in January is when we'll
start doing fecal and urine in the reactor.

0:14:51.480,0:14:53.279
Why is that crazy?

0:14:53.279,0:14:54.620
Everyone has waste.

0:14:54.620,0:14:56.279
I mean, where do we think this goes?

0:14:56.279,0:14:57.279
It's not magic.

0:14:57.279,0:14:58.279
Yeah, but nobody's...

0:14:58.279,0:15:01.449
Nobody's thinking that NASA engineers are
playing with, like, fake poop and fake pee

0:15:01.449,0:15:02.449
all the time.

0:15:02.449,0:15:04.600
Like, that's not normal...

0:15:04.600,0:15:09.929
We would use real poo, but it's considered
a biohazard on a daily basis, so really smart

0:15:09.929,0:15:11.569
people came up with the recipe.

0:15:11.569,0:15:12.869
And it's published.

0:15:12.869,0:15:14.179
There you go.

0:15:14.179,0:15:17.019
NASA engineering -- we created poop.

0:15:17.019,0:15:23.750
Can you give us a verbal description here
of what does the system do and kind of what

0:15:23.750,0:15:25.550
does it look like in general?

0:15:25.550,0:15:28.179
I want to hear this from Jake.

0:15:28.179,0:15:30.439
[ Laughter ] What's Jake's take on it?

0:15:30.439,0:15:33.689
So, Jake, what does the OSCAR system do?

0:15:33.689,0:15:39.230
It converts -- I think the simplest way to
put it, it converts trash to useable gas,

0:15:39.230,0:15:40.230
right?

0:15:40.230,0:15:44.879
Not to use that term from the old project,
but we have this reactor that we inject trash

0:15:44.879,0:15:45.879
into.

0:15:45.879,0:15:51.529
When you say inject, do you mean, like, you're,
like, chucking trash into this?

0:15:51.529,0:15:52.529
Pretty much.

0:15:52.529,0:15:55.959
So, we have a reactor that doesn't have trash
in it, then we have this little separate compartment

0:15:55.959,0:16:00.850
where the trash is, and when the time is right,
we inject the trash into the reactor, where

0:16:00.850,0:16:02.309
the reactor is already preheated.

0:16:02.309,0:16:06.370
It's nice and hot, so when the trash goes
in there, it combusts, and then we collect

0:16:06.370,0:16:11.209
all those gases from the combustion on the
separate collection bottles further down.

0:16:11.209,0:16:13.609
So, are you working -- What kind of scale
are you working on?

0:16:13.609,0:16:17.069
Are you working on the scale of full-size
food plastics?

0:16:17.069,0:16:18.069
No.

0:16:18.069,0:16:24.509
So, we're cutting up -- We've been burning
or combusting cotton and food packaging, and

0:16:24.509,0:16:29.350
what we've been doing is we've been cutting
it up into 3-millimeter or 1-millimeter chunks

0:16:29.350,0:16:34.049
of food packaging and cotton and then injecting
it into the reactor, so no, it's not scaled

0:16:34.049,0:16:35.049
to the full size.

0:16:35.049,0:16:36.769
It's just a miniature reactor.

0:16:36.769,0:16:38.730
Okay, so, pretty small scale right now.

0:16:38.730,0:16:39.730
Correct.

0:16:39.730,0:16:44.970
Yeah, we're limited on size because we have
to progressively demonstrate this concept

0:16:44.970,0:16:50.519
in micro-gravity, so we're going to different
drop towers, and the drop towers only allow

0:16:50.519,0:16:56.490
you to drop something of a certain size, so
if you can imagine we're working at the shoebox

0:16:56.490,0:17:05.980
size now, but eventually there would maybe
be a reactor that is maybe a small trash can,

0:17:05.980,0:17:08.860
like an actual trash can you'd find in your
house size.

0:17:08.860,0:17:13.680
So we are scaling it down just because we're
confined by our test methods, but we're still

0:17:13.680,0:17:20.510
able to get enough data on the concepts and
the designs and the gas and the food flow

0:17:20.510,0:17:22.699
and things like that from all the testing.

0:17:22.699,0:17:26.770
So, you said this was the end of the first
year of the project.

0:17:26.770,0:17:30.960
Does the project have a specific life span
or are you just going for a goal and when

0:17:30.960,0:17:32.920
you reach the goal, the project is done?

0:17:32.920,0:17:37.600
Yeah, so, the Early Career Initiative was
only a two-year project when the funding was

0:17:37.600,0:17:44.820
awarded, so the project will end formally
January of 2020.

0:17:44.820,0:17:52.380
But something that I'm doing as the team lead
is looking at future infusion of where can

0:17:52.380,0:17:56.460
this go in the future, where can this go on
other NASA missions, and so there's a lot

0:17:56.460,0:18:01.560
of research calls that come out or something
that you actually helped with, is talking

0:18:01.560,0:18:08.940
with industry and seeing how our work can
reach back to help or take knowledge that

0:18:08.940,0:18:14.220
already exists in industry and bring it back
into our work, so the idea is to keep going

0:18:14.220,0:18:21.180
forward with it because trash is still a problem
and is not a solved solution for space travel,

0:18:21.180,0:18:29.110
so, yeah, Early Career Initiative will end,
but this work will keep going on, I hope.

0:18:29.110,0:18:30.110
So –

0:18:30.110,0:18:31.110
Go ahead, Jake.

0:18:31.110,0:18:34.060
No, I was just gonna add that I guess the
linear progression, we started out with a

0:18:34.060,0:18:35.560
concept on paper.

0:18:35.560,0:18:38.950
We just finished our two-second drop tower
test.

0:18:38.950,0:18:43.050
We're moving to our five-second drop tower,
and then eventually a suborbital flight, and

0:18:43.050,0:18:47.680
it just makes sense after the suborbital flight
to eventually scale it up, get it on the ISS

0:18:47.680,0:18:49.110
or even further than that.

0:18:49.110,0:18:53.340
Yeah, because this is stuff that not only
are we learning for waste conversion, but

0:18:53.340,0:19:02.140
even the science of solid mass melting, thermally
degrading something or combusting large amounts

0:19:02.140,0:19:04.000
of mass in a controlled field.

0:19:04.000,0:19:06.940
It's still a very unknown area to us.

0:19:06.940,0:19:12.190
Like, on Space Station, they have a combustion
integration rack, where they do fire experiments

0:19:12.190,0:19:16.300
and flammability studies, but they're on such
a small scale, so the stuff that we're doing,

0:19:16.300,0:19:23.290
even though I said it was small scale, it's
still such a phenomena for so many scientists

0:19:23.290,0:19:30.510
out there of combustion and how things burn
or melt in a large scale in micro-gravity,

0:19:30.510,0:19:36.980
so hopefully we can unlock some significant
science for micro-gravity.

0:19:36.980,0:19:41.430
I remember when we were up in Glenn doing
our two-second tower, we showed one of the

0:19:41.430,0:19:44.480
videos of our first combustion in our reactor.

0:19:44.480,0:19:47.309
We showed it to one of the doctors that had
been working up there for -- what?

0:19:47.309,0:19:48.750
-- 20 years on combustion.

0:19:48.750,0:19:53.750
And his face lit up so -- like, he was so
surprised how bright and how big our combustion

0:19:53.750,0:19:57.110
was, even though, like Anne says, it's the
size of a shoebox, but still, it's a bigger

0:19:57.110,0:19:59.250
scale than I think he was used to.

0:19:59.250,0:20:02.780
So, you mentioned Glenn, that being the Glenn
Research Center.

0:20:02.780,0:20:05.980
It's one of the NASA centers up there in Ohio.

0:20:05.980,0:20:08.160
And so, tell me about that trip.

0:20:08.160,0:20:09.930
I know that you guys recently went up.

0:20:09.930,0:20:10.930
Very cold.

0:20:10.930,0:20:12.720
For us here in Florida, yes, it's chilly up
there in Ohio.

0:20:12.720,0:20:15.830
So tell me about that trip.

0:20:15.830,0:20:19.760
You mentioned a two-second drop tower test.

0:20:19.760,0:20:21.370
Is that what you went for?

0:20:21.370,0:20:22.370
Yes.

0:20:22.370,0:20:25.900
So, I was so grateful because the team is
so amazing.

0:20:25.900,0:20:32.750
We had a minivan full of our gear and hardware,
and two team members drove it all up and drove

0:20:32.750,0:20:35.150
it back in the frigid cold.

0:20:35.150,0:20:36.150
We got there.

0:20:36.150,0:20:38.210
We were working pretty long hours.

0:20:38.210,0:20:45.880
5:00 a.m. is when the first wave of testing
would happen, and we got everything set up

0:20:45.880,0:20:53.170
with our payload to put everything into this
chamber that was then raised about eight stories,

0:20:53.170,0:20:56.980
and then you basically drop it in free fall.

0:20:56.980,0:21:00.220
System is armed.

0:21:00.220,0:21:03.470
3, 2, 1.

0:21:03.470,0:21:13.550
And then get your micro-gravity data, which
is a whopping 2.2 seconds, which doesn't sound

0:21:13.550,0:21:24.300
like a lot, but you can get a lot of information
from 2 seconds if you slow it down.

0:21:24.300,0:21:32.030
Why do you need to drop things at all?

0:21:32.030,0:21:33.320
Like, why is that important?

0:21:33.320,0:21:36.230
So, we need to simulate the micro-gravity
environment.

0:21:36.230,0:21:42.870
So, quantity or qualify micro-gravity for
me and for our listeners.

0:21:42.870,0:21:48.120
What does that mean exactly?

0:21:48.120,0:21:49.980
I don't know how to answer that.

0:21:49.980,0:21:50.980
[ Laughter ]

0:21:50.980,0:21:54.350
So, here, on the ground, you are experiencing
gravity.

0:21:54.350,0:21:56.280
Everything is pushing you down.

0:21:56.280,0:22:02.450
When you drop something in free fall, you're
able to simulate all of those forces acting

0:22:02.450,0:22:03.450
on those bodies.

0:22:03.450,0:22:04.450
They're just gone.

0:22:04.450,0:22:08.330
They're just negated, so things can float.

0:22:08.330,0:22:14.380
Fluid and objects just behave and mix differently,
and even heat transfer -- the way things heat

0:22:14.380,0:22:15.380
up.

0:22:15.380,0:22:20.990
It just behaves so different when you don't
have forces acting down on you, and that is

0:22:20.990,0:22:23.890
exactly how things are in space.

0:22:23.890,0:22:30.560
So, on the Space Station, they're in micro-gravity,
and then if you're on a planetary body, you're

0:22:30.560,0:22:33.440
in some type of reduced-gravity environment.

0:22:33.440,0:22:39.430
So that's why it's important to do these tests
in a simulated micro-gravity environment so

0:22:39.430,0:22:44.990
we can learn, because our payload, for example,
is too dangerous right now to put right on

0:22:44.990,0:22:47.380
Space Station with a crew around it.

0:22:47.380,0:22:52.400
It's too hot, there's pressure, there's a
lot of oxygen, and all of that is a perfect

0:22:52.400,0:22:59.280
situation for danger if you don't know what
you're doing, so that's why we're trying to

0:22:59.280,0:23:03.010
slowly learn by going through these incremental
tests.

0:23:03.010,0:23:04.010
Two seconds.

0:23:04.010,0:23:05.940
What can you really learn in two seconds?

0:23:05.940,0:23:08.080
What was the goal and how did it go?

0:23:08.080,0:23:11.371
So, I think we learned a lot in two seconds.

0:23:11.371,0:23:15.600
Two seconds may not sound like a lot, but
a lot happens in two seconds, especially with

0:23:15.600,0:23:21.770
our system because you have to inject the
trash, you're controlling valves, you're reading

0:23:21.770,0:23:26.860
pressures, and there's a lot that can happen
in two seconds, and you're recording at high-speed

0:23:26.860,0:23:31.350
video, so when you inject the trash, two seconds
at high-speed video is a lot longer, and you

0:23:31.350,0:23:37.300
can see how the trash is mixing with the oxygen
and you can see how the flame propagates inside

0:23:37.300,0:23:38.660
the reactor.

0:23:38.660,0:23:40.330
What's the coming year look like?

0:23:40.330,0:23:42.750
Annie mentioned it's a two-year project.

0:23:42.750,0:23:44.020
You're halfway through.

0:23:44.020,0:23:46.130
So what are the goals for this year?

0:23:46.130,0:23:50.330
Yeah, so Jake kind of mentioned it earlier.

0:23:50.330,0:23:56.850
For year two, we are hoping to continue on
with our micro-gravity experiments with longer

0:23:56.850,0:23:58.050
durations of time.

0:23:58.050,0:23:59.560
So, we did the two seconds.

0:23:59.560,0:24:04.110
Now we're going to move on to the five seconds,
and then we're hoping to move on to the suborbital

0:24:04.110,0:24:06.280
flight of several minutes.

0:24:06.280,0:24:13.580
So, obviously we want hours and hours of micro-gravity,
but we're gonna do what we can to show incremental

0:24:13.580,0:24:16.390
demonstration.

0:24:16.390,0:24:18.720
And so, it's pretty busy.

0:24:18.720,0:24:24.060
We are already planning to go back to Glenn,
to their zero-gravity facility for the five-second

0:24:24.060,0:24:28.720
testing in late February, early March.

0:24:28.720,0:24:29.850
It's pretty fast.

0:24:29.850,0:24:37.130
And then to potentially be on a commercial
partner vehicle, demonstrating several minutes

0:24:37.130,0:24:44.750
by the end of the calendar year is also a
lot, especially with the hazards of our payload.

0:24:44.750,0:24:52.130
So, is there a product that is the goal of
this, of OSCAR, or is it just gathering data

0:24:52.130,0:24:54.710
and furthering the process?

0:24:54.710,0:25:03.060
I'd say it is providing educational data so
that we can do a proper redesign for flight

0:25:03.060,0:25:07.460
hardware that will be put into space and be
used by a crew.

0:25:07.460,0:25:12.890
So without doing these tests, we won't really
know how to properly design a reactor for

0:25:12.890,0:25:16.910
micro-gravity, so we have to do these tests
to understand so we don't mess it up.

0:25:16.910,0:25:21.320
So, you talk about this getting into the hands
of astronauts, which has got to be pretty

0:25:21.320,0:25:22.320
exciting.

0:25:22.320,0:25:25.970
Jake, have you processed, like, what you're
doing and what this means for the future of

0:25:25.970,0:25:29.760
our astronauts and humanity as we grow beyond
Earth?

0:25:29.760,0:25:30.830
It's really hard to process.

0:25:30.830,0:25:36.130
I think it really hit is when one of the astronauts
came and visited our lab and was looking at

0:25:36.130,0:25:40.090
the work that we were doing, and he was, like,
inspired, like, "Oh, man, this is awesome,

0:25:40.090,0:25:41.260
the work that you're doing.”

0:25:41.260,0:25:46.520
So real-life astronauts looking at the work
we're doing and was so proud of us.

0:25:46.520,0:25:51.240
That was an awesome feeling, and, no, it still
hasn't really hit me yet, but that definitely

0:25:51.240,0:25:53.100
struck a chord.

0:25:53.100,0:25:58.060
So, how does that look on a six-month or more
mission to Mars?

0:25:58.060,0:26:00.800
That's how long, with current technology,
the flight will take.

0:26:00.800,0:26:03.670
So, how does this system -- obviously we're
not there yet.

0:26:03.670,0:26:07.100
We don't have it in our hands, but what's
the vision for how an astronaut would actually

0:26:07.100,0:26:08.430
use this system?

0:26:08.430,0:26:14.480
So, that transport vehicle to get astronauts
to Mars, depending on what it looks like and

0:26:14.480,0:26:19.620
how big it is, our waste converter would have
to be as small as possible, stay out of the

0:26:19.620,0:26:25.550
crew's way, have as little crew interaction
time, but it would probably be around 100

0:26:25.550,0:26:32.820
kilograms, use less than a kilowatt of power,
and be about 200 liters in size.

0:26:32.820,0:26:36.540
So, I would say a dorm-size refrigerator.

0:26:36.540,0:26:43.820
So, there's always been that balance between
how much power you need to preheat the system

0:26:43.820,0:26:48.390
to eventually start creating that reaction
that will eventually produce heat and then

0:26:48.390,0:26:49.390
be exothermic.

0:26:49.390,0:26:56.070
Yeah, people don't think about it, but there's
so much integration that goes on, on a spacecraft,

0:26:56.070,0:27:02.760
so that you can use energy from other parts
of other pieces of hardware so that you can

0:27:02.760,0:27:04.510
save on how much you need.

0:27:04.510,0:27:09.280
So it's almost like a spacecraft has to be
as efficient as a human body.

0:27:09.280,0:27:12.770
When the human body starts overheating, you
start sweating.

0:27:12.770,0:27:15.340
That's just a natural phenomenon that your
body does.

0:27:15.340,0:27:17.340
Instead of, "Oh, I'm sweating.

0:27:17.340,0:27:21.630
Pour cold water on me immediately or my body
will shut down.”

0:27:21.630,0:27:26.330
Now, there are extreme cases of heat exhaustion
and things like that, but for the most part,

0:27:26.330,0:27:33.730
there would have to be what we call thermal
management or systems engineering where everything

0:27:33.730,0:27:39.810
is talking to each other and the vessels of
the spacecraft are transferring heat from

0:27:39.810,0:27:45.530
one spot or cold from another spot, and it's
all gonna help all of the parts on there.

0:27:45.530,0:27:51.660
So, yeah, you can spit out a number for one
little, you know, for our specific payload

0:27:51.660,0:27:57.510
right now, but when things actually get integrated
and designed, you can be pulling cooling power

0:27:57.510,0:28:01.701
or heating power from other things that are
rejecting heat or giving off heat, and it

0:28:01.701,0:28:05.920
really helps your power efficiency in the
long run.

0:28:05.920,0:28:12.670
So I'm hesitant to give you a final power
number for the future, but it'll be as little

0:28:12.670,0:28:13.860
as possible.

0:28:13.860,0:28:14.860
Sure.

0:28:14.860,0:28:19.930
But the trash will have to eventually get
chopped up somehow and then put into the reactor

0:28:19.930,0:28:25.230
to be the most efficient process, but it'll
most likely be this little box that's out

0:28:25.230,0:28:28.670
of your way that you don't want to smell in
the capsule.

0:28:28.670,0:28:30.850
Just like at home, you know, your trash can
is there.

0:28:30.850,0:28:34.580
It's got to be in the middle of your kitchen,
but you don't really want it in your face,

0:28:34.580,0:28:39.160
so you want to get this nice, little, slick-looking
box that you can use when you need and then

0:28:39.160,0:28:42.120
get it out of your way when you're not using
it, so that's probably what it would look

0:28:42.120,0:28:43.300
like on a spacecraft.

0:28:43.300,0:28:49.150
You know, out of the way, latched to a wall
somewhere, not in plain view, and just use

0:28:49.150,0:28:50.610
it when you got to use it.

0:28:50.610,0:28:53.270
So, what would that look like?

0:28:53.270,0:28:58.910
Well, we don't want the crew to spend a whole
lot of time on waste conversion because they

0:28:58.910,0:29:03.990
have other important things they need to be
doing, like science or taking really cool

0:29:03.990,0:29:07.570
pictures to send back to Earth so we can see
what they're doing.

0:29:07.570,0:29:15.120
But the crew would still have to somehow either
feed the waste into the reactor, unless we

0:29:15.120,0:29:19.650
get this really awesome response back from
our challenge to help us design a good feed-waste

0:29:19.650,0:29:20.650
mechanism.

0:29:20.650,0:29:21.650
Can I talk about that?

0:29:21.650,0:29:22.650
I was going to ask you about that.

0:29:22.650,0:29:23.650
So, please do, yeah.

0:29:23.650,0:29:25.140
There's a couple of challenges going on.

0:29:25.140,0:29:26.290
So thanks for bringing that up, Doctor.

0:29:26.290,0:29:30.230
I'd love for you to chat about things that
are ongoing for the public to get involved

0:29:30.230,0:29:31.230
with.

0:29:31.230,0:29:36.240
Yeah, so, right now, we have this public challenge
called Recycling in Space, and we're actually

0:29:36.240,0:29:39.760
requesting help from the entire world.

0:29:39.760,0:29:44.350
You can give us your ideas for waste receptacles,
like how will an astronaut put something into

0:29:44.350,0:29:50.160
a waste receptacle, then also design the waste-feed
mechanism that will carry the waste from the

0:29:50.160,0:29:53.110
receptacle into our hot reactor.

0:29:53.110,0:30:01.060
And so, we had a webinar answering questions
from the audience, which is available online.

0:30:01.060,0:30:04.470
Just go to the interweb and search “Recycling
in Space Challenge” to find out how you

0:30:04.470,0:30:10.860
can participate.

0:30:10.860,0:30:15.720
So we're really excited because people are
just coming out of the woodwork for this.

0:30:15.720,0:30:21.460
And then, yeah, so it's gonna take a worldwide
effort to go into deep space, and so something

0:30:21.460,0:30:27.200
as little as converting trash, we're gonna
need ideas from all over the globe, so I'm

0:30:27.200,0:30:30.980
pretty excited about the challenge, pretty
excited about seeing who the winners are gonna

0:30:30.980,0:30:34.220
be, and they have money prizes.

0:30:34.220,0:30:38.140
[ Cash register dings ] So it's not just...

0:30:38.140,0:30:39.140
For fun.

0:30:39.140,0:30:40.140
For fun, yeah.

0:30:40.140,0:30:42.740
You can win some money, so definitely check
that out.

0:30:42.980,0:30:44.720
All right.

0:30:44.730,0:30:45.730
Well, thank you very much.

0:30:45.730,0:30:49.500
Again, I'm here with Dr. Anne Meier and 
Jake Hochstadt.

0:30:49.500,0:30:50.880
Appreciate you both very much.

0:30:50.880,0:30:54.300
Good luck this coming year, and hopefully
we'll catch up with you again and hear about

0:30:54.300,0:30:56.110
your progress on year two.

0:30:56.110,0:30:57.670
Thanks for having us.

0:30:57.670,0:30:59.900
Yeah, thank you.

0:30:59.900,0:31:03.110
I’m Joshua Santora, and that’s our show.

0:31:03.110,0:31:05.730
But before you go, we’re going to try something
new here.

0:31:05.730,0:31:08.059
We would like to hear from you, our listeners.

0:31:08.059,0:31:10.500
Do you have a question about space exploration?

0:31:10.500,0:31:16.510
Tweet us your question @nasakennedy using
the hashtag #askNASA and we’ll plan to answer

0:31:16.510,0:31:19.550
a listener’s question at the end of the
next episode.

0:31:19.550,0:31:24.240
Also, please be sure to subscribe to the Rocket
Ranch so you never miss an episode, and tell

0:31:24.240,0:31:25.600
your friends!

0:31:25.600,0:31:27.300
Thanks for stoppin’ by the Rocket Ranch.

0:31:27.300,0:31:31.070
And special thanks to our guests Dr. Anne
Meier and Jake Hawk Stat.

0:31:31.070,0:31:36.520
To learn more about all the cool research
going on at Kennedy, go to nasa.gov/kennedy

0:31:36.520,0:31:38.490
and click “Research and Technology.”

0:31:38.490,0:31:44.380
I’ll close with a shout-out to our producer,
John Sackman, soundman Lorne Mathre, editor

0:31:44.380,0:31:47.800
Michelle Stone, and our production manager,
Amanda Griffin.

0:31:47.800,0:31:50.700
And remember: on the rocket ranch… even
the sky isn’t the limit.